‘To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Neymar’ w/ Alex Newell

Full Transcript of Technicolor Theatre podcast: Season 2, Episode 6

Aditya chats with actor and singer Alex Newell about the politics of gender identity, his experience playing the first transgender character on network television, and the impact of To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Neymar (1995).

The episode aired on September 7, 2020 under the podcast’s previous name, Token Theatre, and can be found here.

Aditya Joshi: Hello, and welcome to Token Theatre, a Mediaversity podcast about representation on film. My name is Aditya Joshi, and joining me today, now that he’s done teaching a gang of country boys how to talk to a lady, is Alex Newell. Hey Alex, what’s up?

Alex Newell: Hi. Teach and walk and talk like a lady. LOL. I’m good. How are you?

Aditya: I’m great. It’s an early Monday morning, but I’m super excited to have you on before you go off to shoot your second season of your fancy NBC show out in Vancouver.

Alex: Thank you so much. I only know network television.

Aditya: You know network television, and you know iconic ’90s movies about drag queens.

Alex: I do.

Aditya: Today, Alex and I will be talking about To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar. The movie follows two prize-winning drag queens played amazingly by Patrick Swayze and Wesley Snipes as they road trip to California with a third queen, a newbie queen in training, played by John Leguizamo to compete in the national drag queen pageant. Does that sound right, Alex?

Alex: That sounds correct.

Aditya: Before we get into this utterly absurd movie, which I really enjoyed watching, why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you identify?

Alex: I’m really famous. I’ve always been really famous since I was 18 when I did this little, well-known show called Glee. Before that, I did a really well-known reality show called The Glee Project, which was the first season of its kind. The second season was trash, even though we got some good talent out of that, but whatever. It wasn’t the same. But I started that journey when I was 18, and that is kind of where identity and everything started to really start about a conversation that we’re having in 2020 now. And I was the lead, one of the leads, and one of the many sparks of the conversation back then playing the first transgender student in a high school setting on national television. So, yeah, my identity is that of the enigma of what identity is of being a spectrum. I don’t ever say that I identify as anything because what is the purpose of that? You should respect how a person identifies, but even me not choosing an identity is still my identity of who I am as a person.

Aditya: Hmm. Yeah. And there’s — not to get too deep into the movie too quickly, but there’s a really interesting thing at the end of the movie that the — the character Carol Ann says to Patrick Swayze’s character, Vida, where she says, “I don’t think of you as a man. I don’t think of you as a woman. I think of you as an angel,” which reminded me a lot of stuff that I’ve heard you say, like, when you’re talking about your identity and talking about the way that people perceive you. Maybe not the angel part, although that’s not totally off from, I think, your brand

Alex: I mean, devil, sure. But angel first, everybody, let’s not forget.

Aditya: I think having watched this movie and having known you so well now for a year, I think I really saw what young Alex was watching growing up. I’m curious, Alex, what was the first time that you watched this movie like?

Alex: I really don’t remember. I think the first time that I saw this movie was like just — my mother — we got DirecTV when DirecTV was like brand new, and there were just an ample of channels that nobody was watching. I think this is when cable started to become a thing. HBO was kind of starting to be a thing. But I remember just flipping through the channels and seeing this movie. And my mom was like, “I love this movie. Let’s watch it.” And I was just like, “Okay, let’s watch it.” And my little gayby self was just so enamored by just — just like the glitz and the glamor and the comedy of it all and how the writing was witty back then. Now, as an adult going back and seeing how beautifully it was written and just the true storytelling of it all and how it was something so outlandish and so taboo that people weren’t really talking about it. I don’t think the movie did as well in its original release as it did now.

Aditya: That must’ve been the first time that you had seen drag or anything of that nature on — onscreen.

Alex: I mean, see, this is the thing. It’s — it’s a yes and a no, because when you’re talking about drag, you’re talking about something that’s been made the butt of the joke a lot of the time. With Martin Lawrence as Big Mama or Eddie Murphy as any character that he’s played, drag has always been there — Jamie Foxx on — as Wanda In Living Color. And that — and drag has always been around in my life, and it’s always been like something that we were laughing at because it was always funny to see a man in a dress rather than what the expression is or what the hustle is and why you enjoy to do it.

Aditya: Hmm. Yeah, that’s fair. I think actually I read recently that this movie was partially inspired to be made by a documentary called The Gay Agenda, which was about drag queens invading small American towns.

Alex: I think that’s actually hilarious to be honest.

Aditya: Officer Dollard — Sheriff Dollard, the guy that ends up kind of like chasing the queens around this like small town area, I think is like meant to exemplify the way that — that we are like very insecure as a society about people who don’t fit into our norms.

Alex: It’s not — it’s not even just that. It gets to a little bit deeper than that, of this cis straight man identifying — being so uncomfortable and upset that he was attracted to a man, to a drag queen. And that was the real — it’s like when I talk about Once on this Island, the musical that I did on Broadway. We all sit — we sit, and we watch the show. And the theme is that Papa Ge, the demon of death, is the villain of the show, when in actuality, the villain of the show is colorism. And so, this double villain that you have — he’s the villain of the show, but the real villainism is people being uncomfortable with their own identity and can’t ever truly accept anybody else’s cause it goes against their normal pattern.

Aditya: Yeah. How — how have you found that playing out on your own, like, post-Glee as you went about finding roles and picking things?

Alex: I mean, it’s — it’s always the thing of putting somebody in a box and trying to understand them more and trying to get them to be a little bit more of a piece of you rather than accepting that they’re going to be who they are. I think we are living, especially right now, in such a political climate of everything’s at our fingertips. And we want to see — if you’re with us, you’re with us. If you’re not, you’re not. And I think people think of that so black and white, and it’s the same thing that we’ve been fighting against the entire time. It’s — we don’t want to, and we shouldn’t have to, fit into anybody’s box just to get along with one another or to coexist or to be around each other. We shouldn’t have to see all of ourselves in somebody else. And in my life, that’s literally what I have to fight against each and every day, because there’s a lot of times that people just want me to be the idea that they have of who I should be. And I think it’s very jarring to people when I’m literally the antichrist of being exactly who they think that I should be. I mean, my best friend still gets frustrated with me. He’s like, “You should be doing this, you should be doing that.” And I’m just like, “Baby, I’m going to do what I want to do. It’ll — maybe one day I’ll do that. But for me, it’s for me right now.”

Aditya: Yeah. I mean a couple of weeks ago when we were having dinner, we talked about this. Like, people want to put you in a box and it’s not necessarily the, like, man, woman, genderqueer box. Even they’re like inventing new boxes every day. And they’re like, which one of these new hundred boxes do we have that you fit in?

Alex: But it’s like, why are we putting it — why are we literally putting more people into a box? Like, it’s so strange. You have to come out to get back into another box. You can’t just come out and be out. It’s really strange and jarring. And like even talking to the elders in the LGBTQ+ community, it’s just like they were doing what we’re doing and not really thinking about it back in the ’60s and ’70s and ’40s and ’50s. But it was like — it was more of a detriment for them to be openly about it. Now, what is the harm that it is to be ourselves? And I get that there are trans women being killed all the time. And I hate that. And I think it’s literally this identity crisis that the people that are killing these trans women are having, and it’s their complex. But at the end of the day, I find more and more that even some trans people are trying to put non-binaries in a box, and say, “Well, you have to pick one thing.” And it’s just like, no, you are all under this one, glorious umbrella of a spectrum. Enjoy it. Just because a person doesn’t look as femme as you, or doesn’t — is a little bit harder for you to understand, that shouldn’t be — it should not be your concern. Your journey is your journey, and their journey is their journey.

Aditya: Yeah. And the — I mean, that’s an interesting thing about the movie, is that other than John Leguizamo’s character Chi-Chi, you actually don’t know if Vida and Noxeema like actually identify as gay. They just like — it’s more that the drag of it all is — is what excites them. And you don’t actually — I mean, you can — you make assumptions, but you don’t actually know.

Alex: Yeah. And like the movie itself was just — it was so theme-heavy for its time. Like, I don’t remember seeing that many themes in movies back then. It would be — especially in a comedy.

Aditya: Yeah. Like kind of an absurd comedy with a lot of slapstick humor. And it has — I mean, it does the thing. It has all the — like the classic comedy and like coming-of-age female montages too. It has the makeover montage. It has the catwalk montage. It has the like girls on a road trip montage. It has the drag montage. Like, there are so many fun, little interludes there, but spiced in are all these, I think, just probably inherent in the subject matter, things that — that force you to consider the broader landscape of LGBTQ representation and the way that we think about people who don’t fit in gender boxes.

Alex: I mean, absolutely. I mean, yeah, even down to people coming of age as a woman, being your full drag queen self. And then, the flip side of that, Bobby Joe [sic], and that coming of age story that is like — this shouldn’t even be close to a parallel.

Aditya: Right. But it’s like — it’s fun because the drag queens who are — none of whom are actually women, become like the female mentors for this like Podunk little town that they land in.

Alex: This whole city. Even helping it a littlest, gayest one who works at the clothing store come out and be his true self.

Aditya: With the stutter. Yeah. Yeah. And to your point there, like, I think, you know, I talk about this in the — in other episodes of the podcast regarding other movies, but it’s really a movie where the little moments are — are important and I think resonate with you in different ways as opposed to like calling them all out. This movie actually I think is just a little bit louder about calling out like small moments. For example, Vida like driving by Bala Cynwyd and like her parents’ house, like that is like clearly something that they want to signpost as like this is an important experience for her. But it is something interesting. And I think, especially in that time, must’ve been like a — and is still like a rampant problem in this community and like dealing with that.

Alex: I mean, when you’re actively kicking your children out of your home for not being what you thought that they would be, and developing a hate toward them, that’s a big thing that needs to be taken and screamed at. And just to call it out of — people are still, actually — even to this day, people are kicking their children out of their homes. It’s like you can nurture a child up until they’re 16. They tell them — tell you one thing about themselves, and your initial reaction is to get out of my house. I think that is — that is the bigger issue of not self-accepting. I mean, a lot of it — of that was what are other people going to say? I think that is the true issue. We — we’re so wrapped up in what other people are going to think, that we’re really hindering a lot of people from being themselves.

Aditya: And I mean, not to — not to cross-pollinate media too much, but that’s what your whole solo-focused episode of Zoe’s is about from season one.

Alex: Yeah. I mean, yes and no. I mean the parent aspect of it all wasn’t that because most people have a phenomenal relationship with most parents. But it was going to a church and not being accepted because your religion apparently teaches you something that’s not in the Bible, which I’ve never really understood, of how everything that’s — that — that we’ve turned pedophilia into homosexuality in the Bible. And that translates into a man shouldn’t dress or identify as anything other than a man. It was — it’s a whole bunch of different things that I don’t even need to get into, but it’s — it’s more so of people’s pride getting in the way of a lot of things.

I think pride is the number one, like, best thing one can have, but also, it’s the worst thing someone has. Too much pride can do too much damage. Because when you hold yourself better than everybody, then you’re probably the worst person that could walk the face of the earth. And you’re pushing your ideas and your beliefs onto someone with not even taking that mirror and reflecting it back on yourself and looking at yourself first. Because, like, when I think of that story — that storyline in the movie, it’s — Vida rolls up to the house, and then his mother comes outside and doesn’t know who it is, but then gets a better look and knows, and immediately is — runs inside. Because even though they live on this glorious tree lined street and no one really probably has seen Vida in years, you’re still — your pride is still so high that you’re like, “I cannot even be seen associated with you looking at me from across the street in my own home.” And that — I think that is something that — I don’t know. When you get to the upper echelon, and you have this gorgeous house, and when you have this look and this aesthetic that you need to keep up with, what is more important? Where is the line drawn of loving your own flesh and blood and keeping this image of being perfect?

Aditya: Right. And it’s — it’s so interesting, actually, because, you know, I think that that anxiety that is driven from that interaction with her — with his mother, Vida’s interaction with his mother, like underpins the whole rest of the movie, because I think both Vida and Noxeema are very adamant that they be seen as women everywhere that they go, because they’re terrified of what might happen if they aren’t. And — and it’s like — you know, it’s part of this — this really interesting thing there also where they are actually in drag the whole time. And that is like their — their primary identity. But I think it speaks to like this — again, like this broader anxiety where they’re like, if they actually find out like the nuances of who I am, will they do the same thing that my mom did? You know, will they kick me out? Will they hurt me?

Alex: I think that’s v. true. I mean, you see that with the — the Officer Dollard storyline where — hand up the skirt and — which is terrible to do as a police officer or a man in general to a women, whether they’re a drag queen or not. But yeah, it’s — that’s where that true fear comes from. And them driving off thinking that they’d killed the man, because that was also a thing that people were — drag queens and trans workers were doing, killing and running because they were either being attacked or they were — quite literally their lives were at risk every day that they walked outside. I can’t imagine what it was like to — well, I can imagine what it’s like being Black and very effeminate in America — but more prevalent there where it was okay and accepted to do and harass and get rid of.

Aditya: I mean, Sheriff Dollard literally goes, “I’m going to bring back three corpses.” And everyone’s like, “LOL, sure, whatever. You got beat up by a girl.”

Alex: Oh, it’s a joke. It’s not. Where’s the line?

Aditya: Right. And you feel, I feel like, as a viewer, two kinds of anxieties watching that scene where Vida gets pulled out of the car. One is like the, is he going to try to make a move on her? And then, two, like — that’s, you know, like frightening enough in itself. And then, two is like what’s going to happen when he finds out? And then, we know what happens, obviously, cause it’s played for laughs and — and she hits him.

Alex: It is played for laughs, but it’s — it’s also just like — I mean, it’s one of those movies that, looking back, today wouldn’t have done well, but looking — sorry. Yeah, today wouldn’t have done well by the theme heavy of it all. But back then, I think it did drum up a lot of red flags of the stuff that goes on. Because then, I also am just like, this would have been — if you had just made it three women going cross-country to a beauty pageant, stakes would have been so much higher, like, literally the highest. That scene would have been an Oscar-winning scene for a lovely actress. And the trauma back there is so relatable in media, if it were three women, than if it — since it was three men in drag. And I think that is the problem — not the problem. It’s a phenomenal movie. I think that’s the difference between now and then of everything.

Aditya: Right. That’s why it’s a comedy.

Alex: Yeah. But that is why it’s a comedy. If it weren’t — if it was three women, it would be a full drama or like it’d be a musical, to be honest. It’d be a whole fucking musical.

Aditya: I mean, that’s — you know, Thelma and Louise kicks off much in the same way that — that this interaction with Vida goes down. You know, someone tries to rape Goldie Hawn’s character, I believe it is. And then, she — and then the — you know, the other character kills the cop — or not the cop, but kills the guy. And then, they go on the run. And in the same way, they think that they’ve killed a cop. And so, they’re like scramming away, but — but it’s — but it’s played for laughs with the like “Don’t grab my dick” line from Patrick Swayze.

Alex: Oh, it’s — it’s just very, like — I — I think that’s why I love the movie, because I know everything about it in a way. I know — I know what it’s done for the culture now. I know what it was doing for the culture then. And even hearing that it was supposed to be about the deterioration of small communities by gay culture, like, and then, just like being like, “Well, fuck that shit. Let’s make it better and make it gayer and make it wonderful.” I mean, to say that RuPaul Charles didn’t get having RuPaul’s Drag Race from being in To Wong Foo is like pretty on the nose. Like, he got that idea from this film. And I think it’s actually a brilliant thing. It’s done so much for our culture.

It’s really just kind of — it’s — it’s given us like a time mark in the timeline of what is queer. And it was like a benchmark check in, in a way. Like, we checked — we go and we say, “Oh, this happened. Now, this could not happen. But this did happen.” Between that and even to the culture outside of it, it showed what like domestic abuse looks like in a small town. It showed what happened — the detriment of the small towns that are still around, and people that can’t be themselves, and people that don’t have the wherewithal to speak up for themselves at the end of the day, and how it — how — how kind and accepting those people are, for the most part of it all. Yes, you have your small-minded, bigoted ones. Yes, you have your women beaters. Yes, you have your — just like those that aren’t accepting. But it’s all a condition. It’s not really — the condition of like being in a small town and not having access to these bigger things.

That’s why Miss Clara is out here just quiet. She’s — the woman literally is not speaking because she doesn’t have anything to say to anybody, because she doesn’t want to be judged based off of what she might say. Because she got out. She came back. It’s stuff like that. I think that’s why it’s — it’s — the movie itself is so good for me because even though I didn’t come from a small town, it gave me solace in going to visit a small town in Alabama and seeing the same things of people and still being scared to be myself. Even though when I’m in Massachusetts, it’s perfectly fine to be myself. Everybody might not know who Alex is as a little gayby, but like it — those stark contrasts and differences of going to a small town, and sitting there, and feeling so uncomfortable of just like sitting down and doing nothing, like just sitting in my grandmother’s living room and still being uncomfortable, but sneaking and watching the movie at night, and laughing, and just being myself, and it was okay then.

Aditya: Yeah, definitely. And I think you — you touched on something there as well, which is they don’t have the exposure to that. And I think because the movie, again, like makes this choice to have the three main characters always in drag and always being perceived as — as not drag queens, but women in every place that they go, I think it allows — the function it serves with the characters, the small-town characters that you alluded to, is that it allows them to — to see the three drag queens as women first and like be open to what they have to say. Because I think that if they had come in immediately and just been like, “These are drag queens,” they would have been run out of town in the first five minutes. And the movie would have been over. It would have just been them getting run out of town after town after town.

Alex: Absolutely. I think that that was a brilliant direction because the only time we see them out of drag is at the very beginning of the movie when they’re getting ready and when Vida’s wig get snatched off in the middle of the day by an ornament.

Aditya: Yeah. A bunch of absurd slapstick things in this movie that just like are — kind of are sprinkled in, again, because it’s like kind of an absurdist comedy. I don’t think that you could have gotten Wesley Snipes and John Leguizamo in 1995 to do a movie like this otherwise.

Alex: Yeah. But also, even with that comedy of the wig coming off, just the reaction of how that was just something that Vida did not want, that was something very traumatizing in that just two-second beat of the wig is off.

Aditya: Right. I want to circle back a little bit to something you said about being in your grandmother’s living room in Alabama. I think that there is such an interesting and like touching theme throughout this movie about like imposter syndrome. We — you know, we talked about it briefly with like, “What if people find out?”, which is the underlying fear of what people might do to someone like you in a place like that. But also, this, like — when I was growing up, I think there were very few people who had met in my town, I think, who had met like other Brown people or other Indian people. And I feel like I, in some ways, looking back, probably had the responsibility of shaping their perception of what a Brown person looked like. And I think much in the same way, like you onscreen and then probably also in your personal life have shaped the way that people think about what genderqueer is or, you know, whatever, however they identify you could be or is. And — and the movie has an — you know, a good way of disarming people and allowing the small town to change what their perception of — of a drag queen is, or of someone who dresses in drag is. Because by the end, they’re all very accepting of it, and again, in a way they probably wouldn’t have been, if they had encountered it head-on to begin with,

Alex: Well, I mean, it’s — when I hear I shape, I think it is more so of imposter syndrome. I don’t think I’m shaping a — how you view me. I think you’re going to view whatever you want to view from a person. And it’s going to be your opinion against who the person is. Unless you know who the person is, it’s still just your opinion. I think a lot of people are like, “Well, we don’t know who you are, Alex.” And I’m just like, “Well, you don’t have to know who I am. You don’t — like your idea of who I am is your idea of who I am.” It’s just like us being like, “Beyoncé is queen.” Did anybody check in with Beyoncé to think that she actually thinks that she’s the queen of America? No, it’s your idea because we do not know these people.

We don’t — people do not know me, and we have to be okay with that. We actually have to accept that it’s okay not to know a person. But not knowing a person isn’t hating a person. Like, you’re just indifferent to that person. And I think we always just go directly to hate because we don’t understand, and we don’t know, and we don’t get something. Just like — I know I say this a lot. It’s just like, when I was younger, I hated math. Why? Because I didn’t understand it. And it was the easiest reaction for me because it was so easy to be like, oh — to say, “I hate it,” because I don’t understand it or then be indifferent. Like, “I don’t get it. So, it’s just whatever. Let me just sit here and try to figure it out and learn it whether it’s hard or not.” So, I think we’re so conditioned to know in our minds that as soon as we don’t like something, we hate it.

Aditya: For sure.

Alex: And I think that that is the biggest issue when it comes to especially being famous or being somebody well-known. It’s — it’s like you meet a girl from RuPaul and you’re just like, “But I didn’t see you. Which season? I don’t remember which one you are.” And then, you think that that drag queen is supposed to be the best drag queen ever on the planet because they were on RuPaul’s Drag Race. But that’s not — they just made a television show off of it. They’re just capitalizing off the story of it. That person is still that person at the end of the day. That’s why I also have a problem with reality TV.

But you get — you’re in this small town, and you see this drag queen, but you don’t know it’s a drag queen, and the only thing you’ve heard about a drag queen has been a negative. Or you’re little Alex, and going to Alabama. And you’re, one, going to a place that you’re just not remembering because the last time you were here, you were six, and it was summertime. And you already know that — you’ve been conditioned in your mind to know that the South is a dangerous place because of racism. And then, you also know that the South is a dangerous place if you’re queer. So, the uncomfortability of that all — like, first, when you have the racism factor, I can’t fix that. So, one, I’m already going to be scared regardless going to the Walmart and getting dirty looks for no reason. I’m just like, “Hey, I’m eight.” Or just like trying not to come out, but not knowing what out was, and all of those things, because it was always me focused on what other people perceived me as. It’s just like having this responsibility to go under the radar a lot of the time and not be seen, being — or being seen, but not heard, or all of that stuff. But yeah, it’s — the theme of this identity crisis of not showing your true self really is — I don’t know — I think it’s just detrimental at the end of the day.

Aditya: Well, yeah. And I think, you know, what — what prompts them, I think, to be more accepting of their true selves at the end is when the whole small town rallies around them. And it’s like really that acceptance and open-mindedness and those things allow a person to feel safe in their own skin. And I’m curious. Like, you know, we mentioned it earlier. You were — your first big TV role was like a bit of a groundbreaking role because it was the first openly transgender character on network TV. Like, what — and obviously you don’t identify as transgender, but like, what was your thought process like as you decided to kind of come out in such a big way?

Alex: Well, I mean, I think this is another thing. It’s like people think that I went out in these streets and willingly accepted this role. And just — was just like, I auditioned for it. And the — it was this role that I was going to get. And it was this. That — no, I got on the show, and it was supposed to be a two-episode arc. I was only supposed to be on Glee for two episodes. And I wasn’t supposed to like have a storyline. It — quite literally I was just supposed to come, sing a song, and then be out. And when we started, it was literally just like — it was an identity crisis at the beginning of it.

I see myself as Wade, this meek and mild teenager. And then, when I perform, I see this fierce-ass Beyoncé. And that was — that was kind of the theme of it all. And until — until quite literally maybe coming back after season three, it — into season four, it kind of solidified more and more and more of where it was going to go. I mean, we were figuring it out as we were just doing it. And it wasn’t until maybe “Grease” — was it? Yeah. When we were doing our “Grease” episode, that it was solidified that this character was a trans character. And at that juncture, I think times were different, words were different, but I also get like coming out as this big thing. It was kind of me just going through identity for myself at the same time as I’m figuring it out on this television show.

Aditya: Right. You were so young.

Alex: I mean, to be like, “You’re 18. Figure it out right now. Go.” I said, “I just graduated from high school. I don’t even know what color I like. I was thinking about college up until five minutes ago. I’m trying to survive college and high school. So, give me 10 seconds.” And so, sometimes I get backlash. I was talking to someone, and they literally opened their mouth and said, “Oh, I’m very — I was very upset that you were playing Unique because we didn’t know whether you were trans or not.” And I said, “I mean, it’s a spectrum, is it not? And it’s for me, is it not? And could I have been in a mindset of going through the process of being trans at that time or not?” And like, yes, yes, yes. And so — so, why are you upset? Because I’m not now? I don’t identify as trans currently at this juncture?

I said, “That’s more — that’s more harmful.” And the reason why — I get it. You want trans artists to tell trans stories, but words and everything were so different back then. We’re talking about still 2011, 2012. We’re just — like, that’s not that close ago. And it’s not that far ago. We’re literally evolving now. And so, to say, “Come out,” in such a big way was just figuring everything out in a big way. And it just happened to be on the largest television show in America at the time. So, anything that was done was done big because it was the biggest show in American television. I mean, 24 million people watched one episode,

Aditya: Right. We were watching. I was like, whatever, 15 and watching,

Alex: It doesn’t happen. It doesn’t happen. You don’t have 24 million people watching television anymore. Not in one night.

Aditya: For sure. I really — I think that really resonates. And obviously, I’ve — I’ve seen the impact that you having that role has had on people, just because the night that we met there was — there were a couple of kids that came up to you and were like, “Alex, you’re such an inspiration to like play someone who is, you know, neither here nor there, is just kind of like on the spectrum, and unapologetically themselves.” I think — yeah. You — it sounds like you get a little bit of both of those things. You get like some backlash from people who want to put you in the box like we talked about earlier.

Alex: I do. I do. And it’s — it’s like a thing that I — it’s the cross that I bear. And it’s like, I don’t — like, I don’t know. I’ve had someone look at me and say, “If you came out as trans, you’d probably be the biggest star to walk the planet earth.” And I was like, “Well, I’m — I’m just trying to be me.” I’m trying to fit in that box that’s just me, the one that I can live in and be okay with at night, that’s not trying to make other people happy. I can be everybody’s advocate, and stand up for them, and raise money for them, and do things that will end up helping them, carving out this path that quite literally so many other kids now understand. And just like, well, I don’t want to be he/she/him/they/hers or any other pronoun. I want to find something that works for me for right now. And sometimes people need that time to figure out what works for them. Even with To Wong Foo, it’s like with Chi-Chi just wanting to be at the end of the day, be the best Chi-Chi that Chi-Chi could be. And you still have these older drag queens that are like, “Well, that’s not the way it’s done. You can’t do this because of XYZ.”

Aditya: Here are all the guidelines and rules for — for drag.

Alex: Exactly, that they were making up as they went. And it’s like, but she’s literally just trying to be herself. And we’re still forcing upon these — these feelings of why you have to do it this way to get what you want out of it.

Aditya: Mm hmm. I’m — I’m actually curious — it’s like a slight shift, but I think related — how you feel about three straight like action stars playing the drag queens in the movie.

Alex: I mean, for the time, it was spot on. It was. Because who else was going to make a blockbuster film like that at that time? And in the ’90s, it was just now being okay to be gay. It was like on the precipice of it. So, I’m just like, who else was going to do it? It just wouldn’t have gotten made.

Aditya: Right. And — and it’s — and it’s great that it’s — I think it’s great that it’s like Wesley Snipes and John Leguizamo in particular, because you got people of color being gay and like — or being queer and dealing with that. I feel like the other movies — the big movies that — that were about gay people before that were like Philadelphia, which are just like uber-depressing, HIV-AIDS, Tom Hanks.

Alex: Exactly. And I don’t want somebody to be like, “You shouldn’t have said that.” But it’s like, it’s fine. It’s like, for that time, who else would it have been? It was not going to be made. It surely was not going to be made if not — .

Aditya: Right. And like RuPaul is in the movie, but like in 1995, could not have led a movie. Even in 2020, I don’t know, like, if could — could lead a blockbuster, you know, film in a theater. Like, probably not.

Alex: No clue for me.

Aditya: But yeah, I think — I think it works — I think it works well. And it seems — it feels like, at least from reading about it and from watching the performance, they — they took it very seriously. And — and they like really trained. I don’t know — I don’t know if you find — having now been a contestant on RuPaul’s Drag Race celebrity-edition, if you find their drag to be authentic or not.

Alex: I mean, for me — it looked authentic for me. I — being — I don’t know for me. I mean, my every day is drag for me.

Aditya: The one other thing I wanted to talk about with this, and I wonder if you — I want — I’m curious to know what you think about this. Like, obviously, you know, we’ve talked about it’s an old movie, so some of these things were just like kind of necessary to get a movie about drag queens off the ground in 1995. They’re — obviously, it like relies a ton on stereotypes, like, you know, drag queens just like being able to do makeovers and small-town people like being homely and not knowing anything. But I also think it’s like kind of a decent subversion of stereotypes in ways. For example, there’s that list that Sheriff Dollard has where it’s like places homos might be. And he goes to every — every place that a homo might be. And I thought that was like a really interesting, like, subversion of that. But how do you — how do you feel about the stereotypes of this movie? Like, both of color and of queer people, and — .

Alex: It’s just — it’s a comedy at the end of the day. And when it’s a comedy, you’re poking fun at everything. And the ‘90s — let’s talk about the ’90s and what comedy was then. A comedian now — I mean, there is a wonder that comedians now have to like apologize for stuff they were talking about all the way way back then. Like, comedy — the type of comedy that people were most susceptible to and accepting of was bashing, lots of bashing, and literally calling people out, and literally just going directly to a stereotype and blowing that stereotype up. And I think it was right on the nose with all the themes about that — where homos are, people in small towns are Podunk — because those things are funny. Like, they are. At the end of the day, they are and were funny. Because it’s just like someone now being like, “What does a lesbian bring on a first date? A U-Haul.” Because it’s like this random joke that is kind of true at the end of the day. You’re going to find a homosexual at a florist because we like flowers. We like pretty things.

Aditya: And also, like the — I mean, the use of stereotypes in this way, I think, like, gives a viewer who’s not very acquainted with this culture like — they’re like, “Okay, it is what I know. But also, like, here are all the good things about the stereotypes that exist.” You know, like men dressing as women and being effeminate, like, it spruces up a small town. And like, they’re standing up on behalf of abused women, and like, all of these good things that come despite being stereotypes.

Alex: Yeah. I mean, even old Miss Clara, she’s the oldest person there. And obviously, she was around in the ’20s and dancing in the ’20s. Like, obviously, she was there.

Aditya: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a really — that’s a really interesting scene. I wasn’t sure what to make of it. I thought it was really cute where her and Noxeema are like talking about Lena Horne’s filmography all of a sudden. Cool. Alex, is there anything else about the movie that really struck you that we haven’t talked about that you think has either aged well or is like thematically important?

Alex: Nothing aged well. I don’t know. I think the film itself had — like I said at the beginning, it had so many themes in it that were needed to be seen, that — whether it be identity or sexuality or domestic violence or abuse or just these little things in life that a lot of people in small towns go through. And I think that the movie itself — I used to say everybody should watch the movie because you’ll get a better understanding about like a lot of things, whether you realize it or not. And the reason why comedy always can be a lesson that keeps — a great tool to teach people something, because as they’re laughing, they don’t really know what they’re laughing at. They’re just looking at something very funny. They’re just like, “Ha ha ha ha. Why am I laughing?” And they go back and think — even back then, I was literally just laughing. I didn’t know what was happening or how it applied to me or anything else other than it being a really funny movie. But now, it’s just like — I understand a lot more of the things that I was feeling in a small town, and then, having my eyes open, living in a bigger town, of the things that were always around me that I wasn’t really realizing because they just seemed so normal.

Aditya: I wonder if that’s — I mean, I think that the comedy of it all, like we said earlier, is very disarming, and it like opens you up to the possibility of like the humanity of these people if you — if you didn’t already have — have that possibility in your head. I wonder if that’s why — I don’t know if you know this, maybe you don’t. But like, if that’s why — I feel like drag queen acts, when I see them, often are like highly comedic. Do you think that that’s part of it?

Alex: Yeah. It is a big part of it because — and even a drag queen sketch is that of the ’90s, of being so in control of the room that it is poking fun at, and it is being harsh, and it is being borderline mean, but all in good fun. But it’s coming from a place of, “How can I instantly make you like me? Great. I’ll be funny.”

Aditya: For sure.

Alex: Cause the funnier I am, the more you tip me. The more you tip me, the more I can live my life, and pay my bills, and have my rent paid on time, and eat.

Aditya: Yeah. I mean the parallel is to that and like farther back like Black comedians and — and things like that. It’s just like the best way to make people like you is to make them feel at ease. And people are so uncomfortable with the idea of something like drag, I think, just generally, just like men are uncomfortable with wearing a dress, like you said, like that kind of fragile masculinity that Sheriff Dollard exemplifies. And then, people are nervous around people of color. People are nervous around queer people. It’s just like all of that — these — these characters have all of it.

Alex: It’s always the “I don’t understand you because I’ve never met something like you. So, therefore, you’re a bad human.”

Aditya: Right. Yeah. If you scare me because I don’t get you, then I’ll — I’ll be — like you said, I’ll be — I’ll hate you, like you said earlier. Awesome. Well, Alex, I’m — I’m curious, you know, given all of that, what you feel like the lasting legacy of this movie is 25 years later, looking back on it.

Alex: I mean, the lasting legacy is to not judge a book by its cover. I mean, to be honest with you, the title has nothing to do with the movie.

Aditya: No, nothing at all.

Alex: Like, not a thing about the movie. Neither did Julie Newmar except to be like there at the tail end, other than like her exemplifying what beauty is. I mean, the woman was still so gorgeous in that movie. But you just see this movie, and you’re just — this title, and you’re just like, “What the hell is this?” This is going to be about some girl that’s going to China or something. Like, that’s what you think it is. But like, it’s so much more than its title, and to never judge a book by its cover, because it’ll teach you something if you take the chance on it.

Aditya: Yeah, definitely. And it — I feel like it probably, not that I know this for sure, had something to do with — with the beginning of normalization of drag. I mean, now RuPaul is like an international phenomenon 20 years later. And this must have been the first — I would guess, this and like The Birdcage — like, the first — and Mrs. Doubtfire, and Robin Williams is in this movie for like a hot second — are like the first introductions I feel like in popular culture of men dressing in drag, like in the modern era, at least.

Alex: I guess. I think. I’m trying to think of anything else before this. I think this was the pioneer.

Aditya: In both of those situations, in both Doubtfire and Birdcage, it was like in drag to an end, to like trick someone. It was like very nefarious. Like, “Let me sneak into my children’s house in Doubtfire — that was definitely before — and like pretend to be a woman so I get to spend time with them.” And then, in The Birdcage it was like, “Let me pretend for my child’s like bigoted parents that — that there’s a man and a woman here and not just two men.” But this was like really authentically. It was just like, “We are drag queens, and this is our best self.” So, I don’t actually know if there was anything like that before. I feel like you would know better than I would.

Alex: I think it was — so, for Doubtfire, it was, “How can I describe myself to get into my children’s house to spend more time with them so that my ex-wife feels comfortable with it not being me?” Or Birdcage of, “I want my child to have a better life. How can I show his future in-laws that we are just as normal in a way that’s palatable for them?” Yeah. But also, Birdcage is a whole different identity crisis of a film, of one not being themself. Dear God. Why aren’t people themselves more?

Aditya: That’s a good question. I think probably, to everything that we’ve talked about so far, it’s just like, it’s scary. There’s an identity crisis. Are people gonna accept me if I’m fully myself? Kind of thing. And I — I mean, I check about as many like societally-accepted boxes as — as you can check. And I — I still feel that way, I think, all the time. So, I can’t imagine how it feels being someone who doesn’t fit all the boxes that society wants you to check as these women do.

Alex: They fit all of them. It’s just society liking the box that they’re putting everyone in or not.

Aditya: Right. That’s fair. Cool. All right, Alex, last question that we ask everyone on this podcast. How has this movie influenced you as an artist and like what you aim to create?

Alex: I think as an artist, it — it gave me the pleasure of having like refined work out, something that’s very well thought out and very well executed. I mean, if we’re talking about the drag aspect of it all, like when they were in drag, they were to the tens and the nines. And everything was very refined and perfect. But if you’re just looking at the performances of all of it, Patrick Swayze is just — was just a phenomenal actor and invested in all of his movies beyond the necessary. Like, the true heart that was poured out of him each and every time he was on screen was otherworldly. And so, I think those two things really helped me refine who I am as an actor and a performer at the end of the day.

Aditya: Awesome. Alex, thanks so much for being here.

Alex: Thanks for having me.

Aditya: You have been listening to Token Theatre, a Mediaversity Reviews podcast about representation on film. Today’s episode was actually the last of season two, so we’re about to go on a short break. Don’t worry, though. We’ll be back with season three sometime in the next few months. And if you miss us in the meantime, you can always catch up on our old episodes on MediaversityReviews.com, as well as Spotify, Apple, Stitcher, Anchor, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Today’s guest was singer and actor Alex Newell. You can find him on Instagram @thealexnewell and catch the first season of his hit NBC show Zoe’s Extraordinary Playlist on Hulu and NBC. Today’s movie, To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar, is now streaming on Netflix. I am your host Aditya Joshi and that’s @aditya.mov on Instagram. As always, thank you so much to our consulting producer, Amanda Lewellyn, and we’ll see you before you know it for season three of Token Theatre.

Mediaversity Reviews is a project that grades TV & films on gender, race, LGBTQ, disability, and more. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook to join the conversation!